The "Expected" Way

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Post by Patwidge on Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:56 am

Wondering if anyone can help me on this... if you had to list some kind of rules that you have encountered in your lives and that were adopted unconsciously by others, but you thought: "Whaaat?" when they came up.
For example:
-Being hushed because you laugh too loudly/for too long/because of something stupid
-The "you cannot cry" rule
-I don't have a lot of ideas, right now...

Most of my ideas are coming from school context, so I am not sure whether or not it is a universal "expected" way, or just at school. Because I found most of those unspoken rules (okay, got another one: you are vulnerable when you are alone, automatically) revolve around the electron theory, that is, people trying to be wholesome, not by themselves but by staying around the members of their group (aka gaining electrons) or criticizing/picking on others to reassure and illusion themselves on their wholesomeness and sense of confidence (loosing an electron)

I had this idea too that there is a kind of wolf pack consciousness in groups, but that there is not a definite alpha... the alpha is "group consciousness"/unspoken rules that everyone seems to live by... And if it looks like there is someone in a group who is more powerful than others, that would be because that person fools him/herself the most by completely merging with those rules... so that would make this person the one that has the less self-confidence.
And I have no idea if this makes sense or not.
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Post by Alethia on Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:40 am

Patwidge wrote:Wondering if anyone can help me on this... if you had to list some kind of rules that you have encountered in your lives and that were adopted unconsciously by others, but you thought: "Whaaat?" when they came up.
For example:
-Being hushed because you laugh too loudly/for too long/because of something stupid
-The "you cannot cry" rule



 I notice one rule a lot of  people who look at aspects in themselves as separate and place rules over those aspects. For instance reading others. TO me its natural to flow in myself - reading. Its just there and I notice an utilize it as part of my interactions at times. I have come up against others who have placed a rule on that space, saying you *shouldn't read without permission of the other person. But to me its integrated as one in the process of interactions so if you place a rule on that in yourself, your only blocking your own flow of relating.   

Most of my ideas are coming from school context, so I am not sure whether or not it is a universal "expected" way, or just at school. Because I found most of those unspoken rules (okay, got another one: you are vulnerable when you are alone, automatically) revolve around the electron theory, that is, people trying to be wholesome, not by themselves but by staying around the members of their group (aka gaining electrons) or criticizing/picking on others to reassure and illusion themselves on their wholesomeness and sense of confidence (loosing an electron)own flow of relating.




I would imagine that the foundation has already been instilled in the early years and the dynamics as they meet later on, are using those unspoken rules as part of their conditioned self. Interactions with all life awaken us to ourselves if we reflect fully. But not everyone does, so they utilize the group to feed themselves in some form, reinforce their feelings about themselves which may no always be healthy in those feelings. The play ground provided to each one will feed each one what they need for where they are in themselves. In self reflection of you and how you feel and what it all offers you to grow is really what is important. So you build authentic awareness of not only yourself through them but of them as one. People get what they need where there  focus is.

I had this idea too that there is a kind of wolf pack consciousness in groups, but that there is not a definite alpha... the alpha is "group consciousness"/unspoken rules that everyone seems to live by... And if it looks like there is someone in a group who is more powerful than others, that would be because that person fools him/herself the most by completely merging with those rules... so that would make this person the one that has the less self-confidence.
And I have no idea if this makes sense or not.

As the observer looking in, we can choose where we flow with it all and how we flow. I try to suspend judgment in my noticing and look at how it opens me up to feel and what I might be holding in me to thwart my own connection. If your sense is observing the other with clarity that they are thriving on power and not empowerment, what you share about being the opposite of what they appear may be quite true. But if your viewing with feelings of judgment around power itself, you may be also projecting into that picture without clear seeing or clarity of your own feelings about it all.

Seeking to feel confident by utilizing the group dynamics as a source to feed a feeling of lack would
create what you share about confidence itself.

Regardless group dynamics are in alignment in some way for those moments of coming together and really you only have yourself to strengthen and become more empowered within it as the one noticing others.  

Seeing it all as a source to build your own wholeness and empowerment, without judgment on what is there. People are finding themselves in many ways, and making mistakes and failing, feeding and building self up in all ways, is part of the over all picture of attaining and learning to be yourself.




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Post by Zen on Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:09 pm

Human culture is ingrained into pretty much anything.
The best way I've found to notice there is a culture-based assumption you have is to think outside it using cultural relative thought process.

Everything is a human assumption and expectation.
Even down to things we think are common sense values are up for variation. Even your language is culture and programs your brain.

This is a statement I think in your trying to figure out what it means to be good and behave and get rewarded vrs not fitting in and get excluded.

Most of my ideas are coming from school context, so I am not sure whether or not it is a universal "expected" way, or just at school. Because I found most of those unspoken rules (okay, got another one: you are vulnerable when you are alone, automatically) revolve around the electron theory, that is, people trying to be wholesome, not by themselves but by staying around the members of their group (aka gaining electrons) or criticizing/picking on others to reassure and illusion themselves on their wholesomeness and sense of confidence (loosing an electron) I had this idea too that there is a kind of wolf pack consciousness in groups, but that there is not a definite alpha... the alpha is "group consciousness"/unspoken rules that everyone seems to live by... And if it looks like there is someone in a group who is more powerful than others, that would be because that person fools him/herself the most by completely merging with those rules... so that would make this person the one that has the less self-confidence. wrote:

You always have a choice whether or not to follow the rules, and you can be as powerful as you want regardless of group dynamics and social protocols.

It's other people's choices on whether or not to follow you, you just live your life and realize your own power on the world around you. Power is not always so easily to predict or define either as control or influence over others. That implies groups of mindless people make the world and you can control it by controlling the people. That implies the power of a human being is only dependent on how many idiots you can get to play along with what you say.

You can be an outcast and still be the most powerful person when you walk into a room, and others with the same spirit will go to hell and back for you. You don't even have to say anything.

Look harder, many humans love and respect those who do not play social games.
The leader reflects the group.
Better to just find another group, or go groupless altogether if you're founding yourself drowned out by a dolt.

Lol your "expected way" is the "good behaved kid" way.
I soon found this is an illusion, most people are not this. Meaning you're not nearly as alone as you might think in thinking for yourself. Life is messy, people have more than good behaved children in them.
If you look only for the social standard as the reality you have to conform too, you'll miss that people are more than they are socialized to be. Some people forget this, sadly, because they do not want to cause trouble or make enemies or make a scene, or they like things... boring. They also tend to like that some kinds of people exist, because they're afraid of "badness."

So, are you prepared to be a villain and cause some trouble? Smile
Because trust me, people love expected stuff, when you don't do it they tend to get pretty ticked off (or they ignore you because your existence makes no sense to their understanding).
Personally I think you have to make the rules work for you and discard some once in a while in order to really live.

Parents and school want you safe and being good for them to do their jobs to teach you stuff. The rest of the world is bigger, and requires more trust and craziness then is comprehensible.

Human culture is bigger than school and conformity ideals.
If you so much as choose to identify yourself as a woman and a person, you will be unable to rid yourself of your culture, so I'd go with understanding it and understanding alternatives exist in this world for pretty much everything in culture.
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Post by Patwidge on Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:20 am

Lots of things in your answers, thanks Wink
I will try to answer as accurately as I can, I have good base now to reflect on!

Alethia wrote:
As the observer looking in, we can choose where we flow with it all and how we flow. I try to suspend judgment in my noticing and look at how it opens me up to feel and what I might be holding in me to thwart my own connection. If your sense is observing the other with clarity that they are thriving on power and not empowerment, what you share about being the opposite of what they appear may be quite true. But if your viewing with feelings of judgment around power itself, you may be also projecting into that picture without clear seeing or clarity of your own feelings about it all.

Regardless group dynamics are in alignment in some way for those moments of coming together and really you only have yourself to strengthen and become more empowered within it as the one noticing others.  

Seeing it all as a source to build your own wholeness and empowerment, without judgment on what is there. People are finding themselves in many ways, and making mistakes and failing, feeding and building self up in all ways, is part of the over all picture of attaining and learning to be yourself.

Atm, I believe I am observing with clarity, but those thoughts drew me because I am understanding underlying patterns in myself because I was projecting this two or three years ago. Or maybe both looking at it with clarity but being involved in this dynamic. However, groups are drifting this year, so it is less visible than before, though at some particular moments, it is clearly seeable.

Zen wrote:You always have a choice whether or not to follow the rules, and you can be as powerful as you want regardless of group dynamics and social protocols.

Look harder, many humans love and respect those who do not play social games.
The leader reflects the group.
Better to just find another group, or go groupless altogether if you're founding yourself drowned out by a dolt.
Ok, I noticed that! Smile It's true it is happening to me...

Lol your "expected way" is the "good behaved kid" way.
I soon found this is an illusion, most people are not this. Meaning you're not nearly as alone as you might think in thinking for yourself. Life is messy, people have more than good behaved children in them.
If you look only for the social standard as the reality you have to conform too, you'll miss that people are more than they are socialized to be. Some people forget this, sadly, because they do not want to cause trouble or make enemies or make a scene, or they like things... boring. They also tend to like that some kinds of people exist, because they're afraid of "badness."

So, are you prepared to be a villain and cause some trouble? Smile
Because trust me, people love expected stuff, when you don't do it they tend to get pretty ticked off (or they ignore you because your existence makes no sense to their understanding).
Personally I think you have to make the rules work for you and discard some once in a while in order to really live.
People love expected stuff? And yes, I can be a real troublemaker!

Parents and school want you safe and being good for them to do their jobs to teach you stuff. The rest of the world is bigger, and requires more trust and craziness then is comprehensible.

Human culture is bigger than school and conformity ideals.
If you so much as choose to identify yourself as a woman and a person, you will be unable to rid yourself of your culture, so I'd go with understanding it and understanding alternatives exist in this world for pretty much everything in culture.
Are you trying to do so yourself? In what ways?
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Post by Zen on Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:23 pm

I'm always looking for alternatives to what we do culturally because I find it fascinating, and very insightful. That's what I studied in college after all.

For me it's basically empathic reading on a social level for the purpose of understanding humanity better.
You can find alternatives you didn't know existed, and also look at your own culture from new angles.
example: I bet you didn't know that humans traditionally have three or more genders in society rather than two.
Man/woman is not usually the norm...

Specifically now I am finding healers/sorcerers/shamans/spiritual figures interesting. They are also often group leaders in their own way, very different ones I imagine...

People like expected things. That's what manners are, plus routines, safety, protocols, plans.
When you're unpredictable it is scary.
I'm pretty sure we HSP especially like expected things too, because we get our overwhelm when tossed into too much chaos for too long with too strong of feelings from other people. When people throw wrenches into your plans it can be scary and damn irritating right?
Lol
You'd think we'd learn life is unpredictable.
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Post by Patwidge on Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:43 pm

Zen wrote:example: I bet you didn't know that humans traditionally have three or more genders in society rather than two.

Nope didn't know that  big grin

People like expected things. That's what manners are, plus routines, safety, protocols, plans.
When you're unpredictable it is scary.
I'm pretty sure we HSP especially like expected things too, because we get our overwhelm when tossed into too much chaos for too long with too strong of feelings from other people. When people throw wrenches into your plans it can be scary and damn irritating right?
Lol
You'd think we'd learn life is unpredictable.

Oooh usually I like unpredictable things. I find that when there is a change, I work it out in my head. Then the change is cancelled and back to original planned thing! Those moments are mind screws for me.

What you said about alternatives is interesting. Do you have an example in mind?
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Post by Zen on Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:09 pm

Patwidge wrote:
Zen wrote:example: I bet you didn't know that humans traditionally have three or more genders in society rather than two.

Nope didn't know that  big grin

People like expected things. That's what manners are, plus routines, safety, protocols, plans.
When you're unpredictable it is scary.
I'm pretty sure we HSP especially like expected things too, because we get our overwhelm when tossed into too much chaos for too long with too strong of feelings from other people. When people throw wrenches into your plans it can be scary and damn irritating right?
Lol
You'd think we'd learn life is unpredictable.

Oooh usually I like unpredictable things. I find that when there is a change, I work it out in my head. Then the change is cancelled and back to original planned thing! Those moments are mind screws for me.

What you said about alternatives is interesting. Do you have an example in mind?

Lol when it happens to me my original plan is usually replaced by chaos. It's kind of funny though.

There's alternatives to just about everything we do in our cultures.
Lol anything specific you have in mind?
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