HSP Issue: Not everyone is supposed to like you

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Post by Alethia on Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:02 am

mtngrl123 wrote:
rombomb wrote:
Alethia wrote:
I see how your working towards building in your children a foundation of truth shared with your own but for them to learn that they do have a say and a voice in the face of your truth regardless.
If we are discussing a conflict of ideas (my idea conflicts with their idea), and if after multiple backs and forths we still have not agreed, that means I'm wrong. It means I failed to give them a persuasive explanation (persuasive as judged by their standards, not mine). In these situations, its immoral to resort to coercion/force.

Parents who, when they fail to persuade their children, resort to coercion, are harming their children. This is how people get irrationalities and anti-rational memes.

For clarity, by "coercion" I mean acting against the will of another.



Are you saying that there are situations where coercion is moral?

He is saying based on this topic being discussed its immoral to resort to coercion...under the circumstances explained.....how is he saying that other situations of coercion are moral? its like a trick question to me...unless of course I am missing something in this....
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Post by mtngrl123 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:56 am

Alethia wrote:
mtngrl123 wrote:
rombomb wrote:
Alethia wrote:
I see how your working towards building in your children a foundation of truth shared with your own but for them to learn that they do have a say and a voice in the face of your truth regardless.
If we are discussing a conflict of ideas (my idea conflicts with their idea), and if after multiple backs and forths we still have not agreed, that means I'm wrong. It means I failed to give them a persuasive explanation (persuasive as judged by their standards, not mine). In these situations, its immoral to resort to coercion/force.

Parents who, when they fail to persuade their children, resort to coercion, are harming their children. This is how people get irrationalities and anti-rational memes.

For clarity, by "coercion" I mean acting against the will of another.



Are you saying that there are situations where coercion is moral?

He is saying based on this topic being discussed its immoral to resort to coercion...under the circumstances explained.....how is he saying that other situations of coercion are moral? its like a trick question to me...unless of course I am missing something in this....


Please note that it is a question. I have never said he said anything. I was merely asking a question. I find your response interesting though.

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Post by rombomb on Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:17 am

mtngrl123 wrote:
Are you saying that there are situations where coercion is moral?
Yes. Its moral to coerce against coercion. For example:

- If a person is being physically attacked, he should protect himself, and if his only resort is to use physical force, then that is the moral option.

- One child is beating up another child, parent (or teacher or any adult) should coerce the abuser to prevent further harm to the victim. Stopping the abuser is coercion because the abuser *wants* to beat up the victim and the parent is acting against his will.

- If a person is being manipulated (a form of coercion), he should defend himself, and if his only resort is to do it by manipulation, then that is the moral option.

In the cases above, I talked about force not just coercion because force is a special case of coercion.


Note that this does not condone punishment. Punishment, as a means to help someone learn (aka change his behavior), is ineffective and thus immoral.

Our society uses the term punishment for legal repercussions of a crime. I disagree with its use in these cases. Here's why:

A fine for a crime shouldn't be called punishment, since its purpose is to pay for damages, not to cause the criminal to learn.

Jail time shouldn't be called punishment, since its purpose is to protect non-criminals from criminals, not to cause the criminal to learn.


People do not learn by punishment (a special case of coercion). Only persuasion works.


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Post by rombomb on Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:17 am

mtngrl123 wrote:

In these situations, its immoral to resort to coercion/force.
Are you saying that there are situations where coercion is moral?


He is saying based on this topic being discussed its immoral to resort to coercion...under the circumstances explained.....how is he saying that other situations of coercion are moral? its like a trick question to me...unless of course I am missing something in this....

mtngrl123 wrote:
Please note that it is a question. I have never said he said anything. I was merely asking a question. I find your response interesting though.

mtngrl, I agree with the way you interpreted my idea.

If I wanted to convey the idea that *all* coercion is immoral, I'd make a universal statement like *all coercion is immoral*. Since I said, *in these situations coercion is immoral*, that means I'm saying that there are other situations where coercion is moral.

Also, even if I had made a mistake, and you weren't sure what I meant, and you asked me your question as you did, there is no problem. You are asking me a clarifying question because you weren't sure what I meant.

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Post by Alethia on Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:53 pm

mtngrl123 wrote:
Alethia wrote:
mtngrl123 wrote:
rombomb wrote:
Alethia wrote:
I see how your working towards building in your children a foundation of truth shared with your own but for them to learn that they do have a say and a voice in the face of your truth regardless.
If we are discussing a conflict of ideas (my idea conflicts with their idea), and if after multiple backs and forths we still have not agreed, that means I'm wrong. It means I failed to give them a persuasive explanation (persuasive as judged by their standards, not mine). In these situations, its immoral to resort to coercion/force.

Parents who, when they fail to persuade their children, resort to coercion, are harming their children. This is how people get irrationalities and anti-rational memes.

For clarity, by "coercion" I mean acting against the will of another.



Are you saying that there are situations where coercion is moral?

He is saying based on this topic being discussed its immoral to resort to coercion...under the circumstances explained.....how is he saying that other situations of coercion are moral? its like a trick question to me...unless of course I am missing something in this....


Please note that it is a question. I have never said he said anything. I was merely asking a question. I find your response interesting though.

Glad you clarified...that one......Interesting interests me.... Surprised
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