I need for you to destroy an idea of mine for me.

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Post by bwill on Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:44 pm

I have had this thought in the back of my mind now and then for a few years, since I observed that many INFP and INFJ HSP women seem to be more masculine than most women, and that INFP males seem to be less masculine than most men. There has been this Jealous thought in the back of my mind, that being a strong female would have been preferable, had I been given the option, to being a weak male. Maybe I should post this one on INTJf. It would be more likely be more thoroughly torn to shreds there, but I was just curious what folks here might have to say about this childishness.
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Post by melodiccolor on Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:19 pm

I sense that INFP and INFJ HSP men and women seem to be of equal stregnth. In a society that values men being stronger than women, this could be percieved as reversed.

Thus, confindent HSP women would seem to be stronger than other women and less confident HSP women would seem to be weaker than other women. The same is true for HSP men as well. It's just that we notice when the difference is outside of societal norms.

There is also the societal fallacy that compassion, caring and gentleness are weaknesses when in fact they are stregnths. So men who posess these qualities would be seen as weak when in fact they are anything but.

Weakness is not feminine and stregnth is not masculine.


Last edited by melodiccolor on Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by SimplyNan on Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:04 pm

Weakness is not feminine and stregnth is not masculine.

I agree with this.

Also, I think that we probably fashion ourselves a whole lot after roll models, what is considered feminine or masculine. In actuality we are a blend of both attributes, and that can play out in many different ways.
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Post by adain on Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:09 am

Bwill,
A somewhat interesting observation, but you know what, I tend to think that HSPs are often more balanced in terms of feminine/masculine sides. We are aware of both. That maybe accounts for your observations, that we perhaps have to embrace both sides, as we are more aware of both sides.
My two cents any way.
BTW, I'm not some how trying to make us better, than non-hsps, but as we tend toward being spiritual and more in touch with our inner beings, it kinda makes sense.
There's nothing "wrong", it's just different.
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Post by Eune on Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:16 am

I can only speak of my own experience as an INFP male. I have had very few women ever express any desire to be in a relationship with me, and I don't think it's my appearance, so all I can conclude is there's something universally unattractive about my personality. I seem to make close female friends quite easily, but that has generally been where it ended, much to my disappointment. So, I can't say I entirely disagree with your opinion, at least from the male perspective.
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Post by bwill on Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:06 am

Eune wrote:I can only speak of my own experience as an INFP male. I have had very few women ever express any desire to be in a relationship with me, and I don't think it's my appearance, so all I can conclude is there's something universally unattractive about my personality. I seem to make close female friends quite easily, but that has generally been where it ended, much to my disappointment. So, I can't say I entirely disagree with your opinion, at least from the male perspective.
I have encountered this opinion often on INFP forums, but I have also read posts from women who express a huge frustration that they cannot find more INFP males in the world. I recently read a thread on INTJ forum about an INTJ woman who had fallen for an INFP male who didn't reciprocate. I'm not sure how to advise you. Maybe you need to change your approach a little. Perhaps people can see your intentions written on your forehead so to speak, kind of like young women who folks say of them they are seeking their MRS degree. Maybe you need to make your friendships all about the other person, and being for the other person, and not caring so much whether it becomes a romance. People have asked me how I make friends, and I tell them, I don't try to make friends, I just try to be a friend to everyone I encounter. I don't feel like I am that good at it, but people respond.

I don't know you at all. I could be totally off. If so, please forgive me.
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Post by jaded on Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:16 pm

Oh myyy I am an infp and trust me not masculine in any form. lolol! I am old fashioned girlie, open the door for me...I'll wait on ya hand & foot husband kinda chick.
This made me smile
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Post by Little Sister on Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:38 pm

Bwill,

This is a topic of interest to me, too. I'm an INFP female, and many of the important males in my life are INFP's, as well. I agree with Melodic, that men and woman are equally strong, but societal values can distort people's perceptions.

My father is INFP, and I've always tended to idealize him (You know what idealists we are. Wink ). Likewise, my sweet, earnest INFP son is perfect in his doting mama's eyes. So my view of what constitutes the ideal male probably differs from the norm. I adore INFx men.

That said, I know quite a few INFP males who would probably say similar things as you and Eune. It's interesting, my INFP brother is in his 40's, and as far as I know, has never even dated a girl. Yet, it seems like too personal a thing for us to ever discuss.

There probably are several factors at work. First INFP's in general can be extremely idealistic, i.e. picky. We have huge expectations, and it's a rare person that can come close to those ideals. And once we find someone who does seem to fit the bill, then we can scare people off with our intensity. I also wonder, if INFP males are slower than other guys in picking up on clues that a girl might like him more than just a friend. So if you worry too much about rejection, and wait for a more sure sign, perhaps you'll just continue to wait and wait and wait.... meanwhile that passive girl might just give up and move on.

Don't really know the answers. Haven't figured it out, but it can be a huge struggle, and INFx guys might have to work harder at it than others at developing a good relationship. I like your approach about simply being friends and focusing on the other.
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Post by jaded on Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:40 pm

"We have huge expectations, and it's a rare person that can come close to those ideals. And once we find someone who does seem to fit the bill, then we can scare people off with our intensity"

AMEN TO THAT
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Post by bwill on Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:52 pm

Hester Prynn wrote:Bwill,

This is a topic of interest to me, too. I'm an INFP female, and many of the important males in my life are INFP's, as well. I agree with Melodic, that men and woman are equally strong, but societal values can distort people's perceptions.

My father is INFP, and I've always tended to idealize him (You know what idealists we are. Wink ). Likewise, my sweet, earnest INFP son is perfect in his doting mama's eyes. So my view of what constitutes the ideal male probably differs from the norm. I adore INFx men.
That would be a very different experience from mine, growing up in a houseful of INFPs, and I think you just revealed to me that you grew up as a Deluxe Daddy's Girl, I think I feel a lot of joy in your memories, and you feel like you hand out hugs with a smile at every opportunity.

What has worked best for me, in the past is to give up trying to figure out the answer to that question, throw it all out of my mind, and trust my being to become what is needed. Trust that God didn't create no junk, and trust his creation to work as designed. Unfortunately that approach sometimes gets me in trouble now and then, or I manage to really upset someone inadvertently, or find myself getting criticized for doing something that folks are supposed to just know not to do, but I don't, and I find myself back in self analysis mode again, trying to figure out how to fix whatever, and I never figure out how to fix it because it's not broken. Maybe it just needs some small adjustments, or maybe I need to steer myself out of the loop at a different point in the cycle, like not letting myself get down when criticized, or not crucifying myself when I accidentally hurt someone Else's feelings. I don't know the whole answer either.
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Post by Little Sister on Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:18 pm

(((Bwill)))

Definitely, Daddy's Little Princess - And while I give out plenty of cyberhugs, in RL, most would perceive me as an aloof, inhibited introvert.

Again, I like your 'tude about handling criticism, and not being too harsh with yourself. That's taken me almost a lifetime to learn, but once you can learn to acknowledge uncomfortable feelings and let them go, it makes everything much easier.
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Post by bwill on Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:27 pm

Hester Prynn wrote:(((Bwill)))

. . . . And while I give out plenty of cyberhugs, in RL, most would perceive me as an aloof, inhibited introvert.
I am the same way IRL too kiddo. Something I love about communication in writing is that when I read a person's words I am given access to their soul. For instance, when I read the book, "When Rabbit Howls" one of the students that was working on the victim's case, felt intensely kindred to me. On the other hand, I sometimes have to remind myself when I read fiction that I'm not supposed to be able to feel the vibe of non-existent characters. Wink
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Post by Eune on Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:36 am

Hester Prynn wrote:First INFP's in general can be extremely idealistic, i.e. picky. We have huge expectations, and it's a rare person that can come close to those ideals.
That hasn't been true in my case. I married the first woman who ever expressed any interest in me romatically, and that didn't work out so well. I didn't have ANY criteria other than, "Wow! She LIKES me! I must MARRY her quickly, before she changes her mind." It never occurred to me that we had to be compatible in some way.

Hester Prynn wrote:And once we find someone who does seem to fit the bill, then we can scare people off with our intensity.
That may be true.
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Post by Little Sister on Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:14 am

Eune wrote:That hasn't been true in my case. I married the first woman who ever expressed any interest in me romatically, and that didn't work out so well. I didn't have ANY criteria other than, "Wow! She LIKES me! I must MARRY her quickly, before she changes her mind." It never occurred to me that we had to be compatible in some way.

lol! Well, maybe it's just true for this female INFP. Although, considering my marriage, perhaps I wasn't as picky as I should have been.
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Post by Little Sister on Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:19 am

bwill wrote:
. On the other hand, I sometimes have to remind myself when I read fiction that I'm not supposed to be able to feel the vibe of non-existent characters. Wink

Perhaps we're responding to an aspect of the writer, when we do this?
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Post by bwill on Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:20 am

Hester Prynn wrote:
bwill wrote:
. On the other hand, I sometimes have to remind myself when I read fiction that I'm not supposed to be able to feel the vibe of non-existent characters. Wink

Perhaps we're responding to an aspect of the writer, when we do this?
I've wondered about that. Like some stories I have read, all of the characters except one, have no vibe. I wonder if the author modeled that character after herself. But how on earth does my intuition recognize these things. Its just so random. I am constantly amazed by the kinds of connections my intuition makes for me. About a year ago, on another forum, I went through a period where every time I saw a book written by a certain author, I would feel the vibe of one of the members of that forum, and inner knowing would say to me "RELATED". That puzzled me for a while. I wondered how in the world these dudes were related, are they cousins? What? I finally told the member of the forum that I was experiencing this, and he googled this author and discovered that the author's philosophy of life, and writing style are almost the same as his. Then the member thanked me for giving him a hint for a direction for his life. Wow. Sometimes I live a life of serendipity.
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Post by melodiccolor on Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:17 pm

Your intuition is indeed finely tuned.

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Post by adain on Sat Dec 19, 2009 8:47 am

I like INFP males....but as friends (I know traitor to my kind and all). I think it's kinda because you have the same vibe as me, and quite frankly you drive me bat shit insane ( I drive me bat shit insane too), plus you wouldn't know if some one liked you or not, any way. That's seems to be a blind spot of INFP's.
For all our preceptive ways we can't see our selves clearly in other people's eyes.
BTW, I'm not a girly women, but I am a women. The older I am the stronger I get, but I don't have the true androgynous thing going on. I'm far too "female" for that. I just don't buy into the whole barbie doll/stepford wife thing.
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Post by Eune on Sat Dec 19, 2009 8:54 pm

I can't resist but to add my personal experience to this topic:
adain wrote:I like INFP males....but as friends (I know traitor to my kind and all).
Sadly, I've heard that too much, and I've had to break contact with good female friends because it was just too frustrating for me. As I grow closer to a woman I want more than just friendship. I'm not a monk, and if I were, I probably wouldn't have female friends anyway. That's just my own personal experience as an INFP male. I can't speak for everyone.
adain wrote:... plus you wouldn't know if some one liked you or not, any way. That's seems to be a blind spot of INFP's.
Personally, I usually know if a woman likes me. It's a bit more difficult to know if she has more feelings than just "like". But I have devised a clever test. I tell her how much I love her, and if she doesn't respond the same, I get the feeling that maybe she doesn't love me. But, just to be sure, I send a few love letters and then see if she how she responds. When she responds, "I really don't feel the same about you", I think it's probably likely that she just wants me as a friend. Maybe I'm not persistent enough. Should I interpret her response as, "I love you too, but I'm not ready to admit it?". Just to be clear, I don't start sending love letters after only a few days of knowing a woman. I wait until we share a lot of intimate personal details, which usually takes a period of months or even years.

I see your age is "100". Wow! Congratulations! I hope I live that long. Maybe when I'm that age I'll be satisfied to have female friends. I think the sex drive will probably decrease a bit by then. Razz
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Post by adain on Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:14 pm

Ha, Ha.....I didn't want to admit my real age on line. Admittly I'm actually really shy, especially with matters of the heart. Honestly it is impossible for me to believe any one kinda likes me, let alone might be in love with me.
Knowing me, I'll fall desperately in love with an INFP man and I'll be forced to eat my words in my last post.
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